Well, got a comment from the guy who taped the Sam Baker show (and the other Sam Baker shows I'm assuming) and he wasn't very happy that I had converted his original FLAC files to "lossy" MP3's. Understandable. I explained to him the reasoning behind this was that I assumed most of my readers would rather have an MP3 file (as would I). Personally I think FLAC files take up too much disc space, and are unplayable in most media players. Another thing is when I convert the files to MP3, I actually rename them, create artwork (if none exists), and properly tag the MP3's (including cover art) so they look all nice, organized, and pretty in your media player of choice. His stance is that by converting the files, someone else could come along later, burn to a CD, then re-rip and share on a trader's site and BAM! now there are "lossy" files being passed off as lossless corrupting the database. Something like that. While that scenario could very well happen, it could happen a number of other ways as well (for instance, that very Sam Baker show is also being shared as a single WMA file on Sugarmegs, not to mention the ENTIRE archive.org database can be dl'd in low bitrate MP3's). While I really really appreciate what these tapers do (really, I love that you guys go out and capture these amazing shows), I don't agree with the whole "do not convert to MP3" thing. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason you guys tape because you think the music you are recording should be heard? Wouldn't it then stand to reason that by converting and tagging the files in MP3, the format of choice for the digital generation, that even MORE people are going to hear this great artist you are trying to get heard. I consider what I do akin to promotion, I post stuff on here because I think it should be heard. The last thing I want to do is make it difficult for the readers to HEAR something I think they should hear. I do not want to pass the job of converting and tagging the files onto my readers, no I am happy to do it, and I actually enjoy making the artworks for the shows probably a little more than I should.
So after thinking about this all weekend, I don't think I will stop converting and tagging the files. What I will do is make sure I put a note at the very top of the accompanying TXT file that states in big fat letters **THESE FILES HAVE BEEN CONVERTED TO 192bitrate MP3**. Therefore if the files do get proliferated, all one has to do is look at the TXT file (which features the lineage anyway) and it will be clear the files have been converted.
Sorry and Thank You at the same time to all the tapers out there. What you guys are doing is MUSIC PRESERVATION.
If any of my readers DO happen to want FLAC files, I recommend going over to www.dimeadozen.org, which is where I get a lot of the newer boots I post (and I have a feeling where I will likely be banned from now :-P).
Also here is a poll, because I am interested in what you the reader thinks.
Posts
I appreciate you convrting files to mp3 and especially for the artwork. Thanks
ReplyDeletePeople who insist on FLAC only are music snobs. Of course it sound better than MP3 but that ignores all the points you raise about player compatibility and wider sharing. Also the argument that MP3 conversion enables profiteering doesn't hold water. If it's gonna go there it will go regardless of what you or I do with the file. Ignore him.
ReplyDeleteI didn't understand the big whoop either initially. DLs aren't too bad if many traders are torrenting but FLAC is a beast for a straight DL. However, I've grown to appreciate the request to trades files in the same format as I found them. FLAC or even SHN. I do what I can to pass along shows just as I received them to minimize any risk of file or sound alteration. I do convert them to MP3 for personal use on my iPod for space reasons. When I trade with folks, I'll encourage them to accept the original FLAC files & do what they want with them on their end. I've educated many folks on the use of tools like Trader's Little Helper. But if they really don't want them, I'll *shhh* convert to MP3 if its that big a deal. And I definitely don't turn my nose up at MP3 if that's what is offered on great sites like this one.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the conversion. If you didn't do it, I would convert them myself. Maybe a link to the original FLAC would satisfy everyone involved? Either way, thank you for making this music available.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that FLAC files is what you want when you plan to burn a "lossless" disc that mirrors the original in quality, because mp3's shortcomings are revealed on most good home systems.
ReplyDeleteMp3's as you state are optimal for compatibility on portable devices
I get the insistence on FLAC for tapers and avid traders, but for regular listeners I think the hassle of dealing with larger file sizes, P2P networks and format conversion far outweighs the better sound quality.
ReplyDeleteI suspect many of your visitors wouldn't be downloading FLAC instead if these MP3 versions weren't available; they just wouldn't be hearing the music at all.
If tapers are actually interested in spreading the music around, they should be glad for a site that treats their work as respectfully (correct tags, nice album art, etc.) as this one does. Keep up the great work.
I get a lot of stuff from the torrent sites and convert ALL my files to .mp3 (VBR0) and I CANNOT tell the difference between that and flac to be honest, I shall remain Anon as the Sugarmegs crew will be up in arms at being such a traitor. I do not reconvert to FLAC as that would be going against the grain.
ReplyDeleteFlacs might be good for those who want to burn the files on CD and play on decent audio. However, I play all my music on the computer and anything from 192-320 is good enough. There's another thing... live music, especially audience recorded material is BY DEFINITION not as good recorded as studio material, thus contain in whatever way troubles. I don't see the reasoning in having a VG show in FLAC. It doesn't get better then it is taped.
ReplyDeleteFor me? 320 is great, I am not an audio freak, I'm a music freak. Good music is good music, regardless the way it is taped. I do agree good taped stuff is better listening. But for all those audio freaks, listen to some 1973 Tonights the night shows of Neil Young. Regardless Flac or MP3, most of the sound sucks, and still.... I keep listening as in these shows you can hear the essence of music.
Peter
I am the taper of the show that started this discussion. In the first place I'm not a guy, but a girl.
ReplyDeleteIn the second place all my recordings come with artwork.
In the third place my files are already tagged.
But all this is beside the point that I was making: I explicitely asked not to share the files in MP3. The owner of this blog knows that, but he has chosen to ignore my wishes. He even states here he will continue to ignore my wishes.
This shows no respect for me and my work. I record in the highest quality and offer in the highest quality. Take it or leve it.
Converting FLAC files to mp3 for your own use is perfectly OK, nothing wrong with that. But SHARING the mp3 against the taper's wishes is definitively lame. Of course they will be converted back to audio CD, traded, then reoffered as "lossless" files, most often in good faith. We see such conversions and many of them are banned on dimeadozen every day, when they are detected. Of course there are many other ways it can happen, but site like yours that do it on a large scale are the Torre Canyon of the trading pool.
ReplyDeleteIf you "really appreciate what these tapers do", stop spitting in their face. Is it so hard to comply with their wishes? I know hundreds of tapers who don't share their recording anymore because of people like you.
Phenix059, moderator at dimeadozen.org
I regulary download live shows and listen (like the majority?) from by laptop / ipod and mp3 is a far easier medium to handle.
ReplyDeleteTS keep up the good work - I have enjoyed lots of music that otherwise would have passed me by.
I respect and appreciate what the tapers do, its the motivation I don't get, if the idea is to get the music to be listened to and appreciated by as many as possible then surely mp3 has a place.
As a taper myself I never ask that people don't convert the files. It is a futile effort. Once I let a recording out into the wild I have no control of what is going to happen to it.
ReplyDeleteLately I've been trying to post FLACs and MP3s.
The MP3s always get more downloads.
Agree with SxPxDxCx. Tapers have zero control once it's out there.
ReplyDeletePersonally, everything I tape ends up as an MP3 so I can TAKE IT WITH ME (which is the point of MP3s). In the future, when hard drives and MP3 players are even more monstrous than today, you'll be able to take the lossless stuff with you. And I hope that day arrives sooner than later. Until then, we'll be stuck with MP3s.
I appreciate you converting files to mp3 (i probably couldn’t do it)and the artwork is ace. Thanks Mx
ReplyDeleteIF flac is offered with a minimum of download steps, man, i'm all for it.
ReplyDelete400+ Meg downloads on Megaupload are easy as anything. or as a couple of 200s.
thank god i'm not somehow forced to use dial-up.
so my view on flac simply comes down to how simple their downloads are.
and they're VERY doable in an easy manner, but only with certain upload sites.
and to my knowledge, megaupload is largely a free site, right?
rapidshare is NOT flac-friendly, unless you're shelling out for premium member privileges and know how to use download manager software...still, i have gone the 10-12 step route with a show i really needed to have, ones that are only on RS.
it'll take a couple, 3 days, but i'll get it.
flac conversion IS an absolute snap with flac frontend or trader's helper.
and fwiw, i've been told that there are winamp i-pod type players that do play flac files, unconverted.
and yeah, i've dl'd lots of crappy horrible quality shows that were for some whackjob reason STILL encoded to flac...
but if the tapers are the gatekeepers, i do think (IF the 200-400M uploads aren't incredibly difficult or expensive to do), why NOT respect what they request?
there's a bit of primadonna do-as-i-say behavior to it, but so what?
i believe that they can shut the good stuff off, like the mod from Dime sure implied.
at the level of this sort of a well-respected blog it seems like you sorta need to play ball with the tapers.
not doing so will (like you said) put you on the tapers' shitlists for sure especially IF there's another way to get the shows up as flac, and keep them accessible anyone with a connection that's say, better than dial-up.
your blog is great and with music showing an excellent ear and taste.
i wish you luck in figuring out what to do...but there are multiple sites using megaupload for flac.
it could be worth looking into, if it's not already too late to keep the peace.
I really really love the idea behind this site.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have a problem with, is the low-grade mp3-conversions here. At least share it in 320. When sharing in 192 the drums always sound like someone is slapping his flat hand in water.
Also - if the taper has asked you to NOT re-encode to MP3 - please respect his work as we all respect the enourmous work you do on this site.
I tape a lot of shows myself, and I don't share them anymore - as the MP3ers destroyed a lot of my shows. Live-shows are already sound-challenged, and destroying them by encoding to lowgrade MP3 isn't the way to go.
Please respect the tapers, without them your site would be a less interesting place to visit...
I really like what you are doing and it is much appreciated. I always make sure when I download that I am downloading MP3 files because that is what I listen to. I listen for the content and not so much for the "pure" sound quality. If it wasn't for your conversion I would miss a lot of great shows. Thanks again.
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I convert all of the files i download to mp3 for 3 reasons:
ReplyDelete1. All my music systems - including the car radio - play mp3s and some only play mp3s.
2. I am intestested in old music and live performances where there is often little point in playing them on the highest fidelity equipoment with the optimal file format. A scratchy old 45 or 78 doesn't sound any better in flac!
3. I can get a lot more files into the limited storage space I have available.
Disk space hardly costs anything nowadays. Why not tag FLACs? You write like you think FLAC cannot be tagged... Nonsense. FLAC sounds better and why would you care it's bigger? Buy a device that can play FLAC or download the needed plug-ins. It's so simple! There's no reason anyone would want to listen to MP3.
ReplyDeleteThis is not about Flac vs. Mp3...
ReplyDeleteThis is not about space in ours HD...
This is not about bandwidth or portable devices...
This is about confident and self-esteem. If you're a member of Dime is because you have accepted its terms and conditions to open your account. But you've violated that commitment with your behavior here. The music is neither good nor bad, neither sounds good or sounds bad. The music is shared among friends and peers and you're a cheat. Dime is a site of snobs, maybe. Dime is a site of elite, it can be but is not a cheating site. The least you can do is to log in there and let you ban because obviously you do not belong there. You have a little more self-esteem and share music and not what you are doing here.
Please stop cheating.
Perfecto said it perfectly - from one Dime member to another, you should be ashamed of yourself.
ReplyDeletethis comment is from a wellknown dime meber who fought the mp3 devil on magma blog enuff said...i hope this does explain what flac is all about
ReplyDeletepart 1
My name is OLVATOR, I think some of you might have heard or read my name by now. I have been in the lucky position to pass on numerous Magma tapes to the general public (along with some very dedicated other Magma collectors like hanwaker, juhab1, rushomancy, nadir53...just to name a few...). I would like to take this opportunity once again to talk to you all about mp3, and the distribution of mp3 sourced material of the shows that we uploaded at DIME in lossless quality.
First of all, let´s get one thing out of the way: I do not own the shows that I shared with you all. So in the end, after I uploaded them I have no more control about what will happen to them, and of course you are all free to do with them whatever you want (except for selling them!). But I want to remind you about a few things:
First of all, when people share their shows with you all (which you get for absolutely free) and when they request you not to transfer and distribute them as mp3, please respect this wish. Of course you can turn them into mp3 for private use, but not for distribution.
Some people say that it is elitist bullshit when we talk about "polluting the trading pool with mp3 sourced material". But that is only the case on first sight. It is indeed true and it is very bad for the future generations after us, who would still like to get clean copies of shows.
There are numerous shows by now which are traded as lossless which in case they are not. In the last 15 years, since all this mp3-ology has started, we have already lost many lossless sources in the Magma trading vaults. Just because people are not caring about this issue. They "remaster" concerts and do not use the proper settings in their audio software and then they upload them as flac again. Or they grab shows from blogs that use mp3 and start trading them as cdr´s. The result is very depressing.
Most of this happened because people just did not know better. It has always been the step of transferring the audio tapes to digital (to the computer) when this happened.
A few examples: the ORTF 1971 show that I uploaded on DIME some time ago. Go ahead and check it with a spectral analyzer. There is mp3 in the lineage!
The Brussels 1974 show. There is mp3 in the lineage.
Frejus 1977. Mp3 in the lineage...
There are many more examples I am sure....if we would only take the time to really check them all.
Why is this so bad? Well....because in about 20 years from now, most of the original tapers might be dead (no kidding), and then the original tapes will most likely end up in a dust bin. It has happened many times before. What then? It probably means that we will have lost the real lossless versions forever!
Imagine that sometimes in the future as technology advances, we might be able to fix hiss or other distractions and equalizing problems in a much better way then today, but the bit-rate and frequencies are not there anymore to do a proper job. All this mp3 is really a big problem for this.
If you had a master copy of a video from a TV station, would you transfer it to a small mpeg file and then throw the master away?
If you had an original manuscript by Kafka, would you typewrite it and then throw the original away?
to be cont
part 2
ReplyDeleteIf you had an original manuscript by Kafka, would you typewrite it and then throw the original away?
I think that in the long run, by transferring shows to mp3 for distribution, we are not at all honouring the efforts made by the tapers and collectors themselves, we are indeed kicking them with our feet.
Today, our society wants to live life quickly. Everything has to be available NOW. Maybe it´s that. To upload and download mp3 does not take so much time. Well, ok. But don´t you think that you should be happy you get all this stuff for free?? Don´t you think it should be ok to wait for a download of flac files, even if it takes 3 hours?
The shows that you all grabbed from DIME (or that were used as a basis for mp3 distribution on blogs) were the result of intensive research to find the best available sources still around. Weeks of comparing , discussions, trying to get in touch with people,driving 900 km per day with a car, etc...have been done to present you the Magma flood. To see all these shows being distributed as mp3 is really hurting myself, as we all have always stated in the descriptions that we do not support mp3.
But even our descriptions are not always reproduced. There is even no credit to the people who did all this, when something is posted on the web. And I think it is a shame.
But as I said, I cannot change the world, and the shows do not belong to us. We have to thank the guys who recorded and preserved them for all these years. People who have lovingly preserved rare Magma tapes for more than 30 years....and now our generation comes along and turns them into mp3 cause its quicker, smaller, or whatever......
Please take a few minutes to think about this, THANK YOU!
And thank you all for keeping the music alive.
OLVATOR
I have been a "taper" not just a trader for years over 25 years. I could care less if any shows I get are mp3. Just let people know what they are getting. Mp3 as a recording/storage medium is convenient. However, I don't feel anything should be sampled lower than 256kbs. Anything lower than this on an original copy and it sounds like rakes scratching garbage can lids. Portable device or quality stereo. I've dl'd too many shows from dime, bt, and others who claim to not support mp3, and low and behold I have dl'd mp3 sources. I've have also traded with those so superior as to say they have no mp3, want no mp3 and will send back mp3 sourced material only to receive mp3 material. This only leads me to the conclusion that the majority of people can't tell the difference between sources. If done properly you really can't tell. If anything I think the digital realm has taken the fun out of collecting because things are all to easy and available to get depreciating the true appreciation of the "hobby" and the music.
ReplyDeleteIt seems I hear all too much bitching and complaining rather than enjoyment anymore. In conclusion keep on doing what you're doing and enjoy to do TRUER SOUND. P.S. What we as tapers capture is not comparable to Kafka manuscripts. If it was Kafka would have written the same damn book every time, much unlike how bands plays the same setlists over and over. Let's all get over ourselves.
Tom Z
Totally glad you convert. FLAC would be completely useless for me. Now THAT's lossy.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for Dime... it sucks, I gave up downloading from Dime... with speeds of about 1 ks, it takes months before a show comes in. Blogs like this one help people like me to enjoy good music.
ReplyDeleteI was a taper myself, have share everything over the years, have seen people taking my tapes as if it is their own. I can't care less. It's the music that has to be in the Great Wide Open. As for Sam Baker, this guy deserves all the attention as he still sells not much.
As for this show, nice sound, but does it really sound sp much better in Flac? Really???
And again, I appreciate people sharing, I also know for fact that Flacs are huge and take a lot of time to download, even with rapidshare, let alone with torrents which are heavy shaped here in Malaysia.
"not to mention the ENTIRE archive.org database can be dl'd in low bitrate MP3's"
ReplyDeleteWrong: A quick search would tell you that there are thousands which are lossless only. It's up to the artist or uploader to decide which formats are available.
"I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the reason you guys tape because you think the music you are recording should be heard?"
Why do you think that? Some tape to document a show, how many people listen to it is another question.
I convert all FLAC files to mp3, simply because I want to transfer it to one of my 1tb mediaplayers which can't read FLAC. I convert everything into 320 MP3, that'll do just fine for me. Lately I find more and more blogs and sites share music in lower bitrates, and I really would like to have at least 256 and preferably 320. So therefore I don't mind getting FLAC, that way I can choose how to convert the files.
ReplyDelete